Education secretary mocks deputy Labour leader for speaking 'out of both sides of her mouth at once' on riots
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Email As the violence in London appeared to subside overnight, political tempers started to flare.
Newsnight played host last night to a good old-fashioned barney between Michael Gove and Harriet Harman on the political fallout of the riots.
Harman, 61 – something of a veteran of Newsnight bust-ups – kept her cool. But Gove, 43, who was still at school when Harman was first elected as an MP in 1982, came close to losing his temper.
Henry Kissinger famously said that battles between academics are so intense because the stakes are so low. But the row between Gove and Harman, which focused on the question of whether government spending cuts played any role in creating the conditions for the riots, was so intense because the stakes are high.
The riots are David Cameron's gravest domestic political crisis. If police can contain the violence and the government is able to portray the riots as a simple matter of law and order, then the prime minister may avoid any long term political damage. But if the violence continues and Labour succeeds in creating the impression that government cuts have – at the very least – created an unhelpful climate, then Cameron may be damaged.
Labour and the Tories had started earlier in the day to circle eachother like two nervous animals in the wild. Labour, which is focusing its attention now on the need to restore order, is dropping small hints of its strategy when the violence eventually dies down. This is that the scale of government spending cuts – to police numbers and to the Educational Maintenance Allowance (EMA) – have helped foster an uncertain climate which has been exploited by rioters.
The Tories are determined to stamp on this. Nervous of the impact of cuts, they want to portray the riots as a simple law and order issue.
Perhaps that explains Gove's aggression on Newsnight. It may also explain the decision of the Conservative press office to edit remarks by Diane Abbott earlier in the day to give the impression that she was excusing criminality. I blogged on the Abbott affair on Tuesday.
The exchange between Gove and Harman is worth reading for the sheer theatricality of a classic bust up. It also gives a sense of the battle ahead which start as early as Thursday when MPs meet in emergency session to debate the riots.
Harman began by saying that Ed Miliband had received a warm reception in her Camberwell and Peckham constituency on Tuesday because voters knew of his opposition to the trebling of tuition fees, the abolition of the EMA and cuts to youth services.
Harman said:
People are still very frightened and very worried about whether or not they are going to be able to carry on with their business...I don't think people want to hear us doing anything other than now saying the absolute priority is that law and order should be restored. There will be discussions about underlying causes. I don't agree with Cameron when he says it is simple. It is not. It is very complex. But unpicking those strands is for another day. But there is a sense that young people feel they are not being listened to. That is not to justify violence. But when you've got the trebling of tuition fees, they should think again about that. When you've got the EMA being taken away, when you've got jobs being cut and youth unemployment rising and they are shutting the job centre in Camberwell – well you should think again about that because this is going to cost money. all of this does not help reduce the deficit.
This prompted Gove to challenge Harman. Here is their exchange:
MG: Harriet, do you think there are people breaking into Currys to steal plasma TV screens and breaking into Foot Locker to steal box fresh trainers who are protesting against tuition fees or EMAs?
HH: No. Don't put me in that position.
MG: Then why have you raised it consistently in the debate this evening?
HH: Because I am saying I think you should be on the side of young people. By the way it was mostly young people that were being terrorised by other young people and they were horrified by the idea that somehow these young people are being portrayed as their spokespeople, as representatives of a cause. They are not. But the truth is the government should be on the side of opportunities for young people and jobs for young people. And you are not. But priority number one is actually sorting out law and order on the streets.
MG: I used to have an enormous amount of respect for Harriet. She has worked enormously hard in Camberwell and in Peckham. She is a great constituency MP. But frankly I am appalled that Harriet can speak out of both sides of her mouth at once. On one level Harriet says it is vitally important that we don't engage in partisan point scoring and that we concentrate on restoring order on our streets. Quite right too...But at the same time she is somehow linking these events to tuition fees, the EMA, job centres. Harriet, if you are not linking them why did you mention them on this programme?
HH: You've got one policy in mind which is reducing the deficit. I am just saying there are some things which are short-sighted and you should not be going ahead with. We want young people to have opportunities. Nothing justifies people who haven't got opportunities taking and robbing...
MG: There are people, Harriet, who come from Sri Lanka, who fled persecution, whom both of us would welcome to these shores. What they don't want is trying to find excuses or justifications or ways in which you are relativising this conduct. They want to know they are in a country where politicians stand together and we are on the side of order.
HH: No Listen. We can stand together on the absolute necessity to end the violence. I will not stand with you on youth unemployment, on closing the job centre, on the EMA.
The Newsnight presenter Gavin Esler then asked Gove whether he was saying there is no connection between any of the spending cuts and the violence.
MG: It is ludicrous...
HH: ...there is no justification...
MG: ...ludicrous to assert that there are people who burnt down an EMI factory because they were concerned about the disappearance – I should actually say the reform - of the EMA. The idea is fatuous. It demeans Harriet even to try to make that argument. Yes there are urban problems. Harriet has had to tackle them as a constituency MP. I am aware of them as well.
HH: But you are going to make them worse because of the things you are doing. You are not going to make them better by this focus on deficit reduction which actually threatens police numbers as well as council services. Listen to the point about parenting in the earlier discussion.
At this point Gove raised his voice as he said:
Who has been in charge of parenting policy for the last 13 years, Harriet? Who gave us this deficit? Harriet, if there is anyone who is responsible for the environment in which these young people grew up it's you and the Labour party. Now I don't want to have more of your double dealing out of one side of your mouth saying that you are going to show solidarity with the government and with the legitimate forces of order and on the other side try to make partisan points. Let's put that to one side.
HH: I'm not...
Gove then adopted the tone of a school master as he said:
Frankly, Harriet, frankly it is beneath you. And it demeans your service as a constituency MP. It is not worthy of the tradition of a Labour party that has generated people who do understand what it is to strive and to work hard and are on their side and are not making excuses as you have been for what has gone on here...
HH: I am not making excuses...
Gove, a former president of the Oxford Union, then spat out his words:
I tell you what is out of touch Harriet. What is out of touch is making the sort of relativising justifications that you have for that conduct. I hope what we hear from the Labour party on Thursday is something a bit more robust.
HH: I don't even remember what relativising is. But what I am saying is I am standing in solidarity not with the government but with the people I represent who are having a very hard time at the moment and their number one priority is to get law and order back on the streets. We can discuss what are complex issues – not simple like David Cameron said – we can discuss them here and after. But for the time being we have got to make sure that these very fragile communities are supported.
MG: One thing is simple Harriet: can you stand and clearly condemn what went on or will you....
HH: Of course...
MG: ...or will you attempt to use it...
HH: No totally...
Gove raised his voice again as he said:
...like Ken Livingstone and Lee Jasper and everyone else for political reasons.
HH: No. Of course I condemn it. No I totally condemn it.
MG: Harriet.
HH: I condemn it.
MG: Ed Miliband was admirable and clear.
HH: Michael. Did you hear that? Did you hear that? I totally condemn it.
MG: I think everyone watching this can judge on the basis of the answers you gave beforehand...HH: ...the people in my constitu